Julie Murphy is the author of the middle grade novels Dear Sweet Pea and Camp Sylvania, as well as YA novels including Pumpkin, Puddin’, and Dumplin,’ which was adapted for film by Netflix. Jonathan Van Ness stars on Netflix’s reboot series Queer Eye, serving as the hair guru and self-care advocate. He is also the author of the picture books Gorgeously Me! and Peanut Goes for Gold, and the adult memoir Over the Top. We asked Murphy and Van Ness to discuss their new YA novel, Let Them Stare, queer history, and the joys of collaboration.
Julie Murphy: Hey, Jonathan. To get us warmed up, let’s talk a little bit about how we got connected, and the inspiration behind Let Them Stare.
Jonathan Van Ness: I believe that I first saw Dumplin’ the night that I was going through a breakup, New Year’s Eve 2019. I was really upset. I watched Dumplin’ and I cried my eyes out; I was like, this is so good. Then I realized that it was based on a book, ordered the book, read the book. Then fast forward. My book, Over the Top, comes out in 2019, and we met in real life at BEA [that year]. It was love at first sight, and then we were DM friends. Then in 2022, I impulse bought a bag that may have been a Birkin, which jogged the idea [for our book]. I was interviewing all these queer historians for Pride that year, and I was like, wait! What if there was a haunted bag and the ghost befriended this character who’s loosely based on a version of me, had I not been able to leave my hometown? So that was the inspo, and you were the most patient and gracious teacher and co-author.
Murphy: You had this idea for this book, and it was outlandish. And there were just so many questions to answer about a haunted handbag, and it snowballed into Let Them Stare.
Van Ness: Julie, how would you break down our writing process?
Murphy: It was trial and error for a little while. I have worked with a couple of different co-authors, and I found that it is definitely that way with every single one. You can’t replicate one single process and have it work with every partner. What worked for us was that we would sit down and, plan out a couple of chapters in advance, and Jonathan would take the first stab at a chapter to write the bones of it, and to really get a lot of the voice down that we were going for. And then I would follow and fill in the blanks and flesh it out into a bigger narrative. And then things got a little crazy for Jonathan.
Van Ness: And so we reversed. Julie took the first stab, and I went through after. I felt very supported. This was my first time writing fiction. At the beginning, there were like 26 plot lines and you’d have to streamline it. But there was never a time when you gave me feedback that I ever felt silly. It really was just such a pleasure. I was thinking this morning, I want to write books with you forever. Getting to do this with you has been one of the most amazing experiences of my career.
Murphy: Oh, my God! That’s so sweet! I feel like there were so many strengths that you brought to the table, things that cannot be taught. The exuberance that you have on stage, and the connection that you have with people, are so present in [your] storytelling. I remember you were like, how do I format a document? And I was like, Jonathan, that’s the least of your worries—let me worry about how to format. You have so many qualities that so easily lend themselves to storytelling, and it was actually a pretty seamless process. I feel like neither of us really knew what to expect going in, and it was pretty great.
How did this experience compare to your previous publications? I know this is your first YA, but it’s also your first full-length novel. Were there any learning curves or roadblocks?
Van Ness: Absolutely. When I turned in chapter one, I remember thinking, Julie’s probably going to be blown away by what a natural fiction writer I am. And she’s going to be like, this girl’s really got it together. But then you were like, okay, so what’s happening is that you’re writing this like a memoir from Sully’s perspective. But in fiction, you have to paint a world. It's not only from the POV of one character. And I was like, oh my God! Eureka!
Murphy: Ha ha ha!
Van Ness: I think that for me the hardest thing was getting that style.
Murphy: It’s a lot to hold in your head when you’re doing this for the first time. You were just so eager and jumped right in. And that’s really all that I could have asked for.
Van Ness: I feel like it would be similar to if I got a first time highlight client, and they were asking me like 3,000 questions about every single thing I was doing like. I don’t think I would have had the patience.
Murphy: No, no, no, no, no! As someone who has literally FaceTimed you from like my hairdresser’s chair to be like, “what do I do, Jonathan?” I can tell you that that is totally not true. You're very patient.
Van Ness: Not the same, Julie, I mean—
Murphy: Bye.
Van Ness: Don’t make me Queer Eye you on taking a compliment.
Murphy: Okay. Okay.
Let’s talk about the historical exploration of queer identity through Rufus. You talked a little bit about talking to queer historians during Pride a few years before the project started, and how that sparked the idea for this. But could you talk a little bit more about that?
Van Ness: I’ve interviewed queer historians for years for my podcast Getting Better, about queer history across continents and centuries. So I am very familiar with a lot of the ways that queer history has unfolded, throughout the world. But I think in the case of this book there were a few historians who were particularly impactful, including Bob Skiba. He’s this amazing queer historian whom I spent hours with for this book specifically, and he was where we got a lot of the inspiration for Rufus’s character. There really is such a rich history of female impersonators and drag artists in Pennsylvania and the surrounding cities like Philadelphia and Pittsburgh from as far back to like the 1700s and 1800s. But Rufus’s character was more based on a character from the ’40s, ’50s, and ’60s.
Getting to spend time with queer people who have been up against times that were harder than ours really inspires me and motivates me. I hope that this book can inspire other young, queer people to investigate their own history, because it wasn’t until I was in my 30s that I even knew that there were other gay people from my hometown, and that may sound so silly, but truly I felt like I was one of the first. There has always been this list of discriminatory practices that queer people have had to deal with forever in this country, and I think that in our story it’s really sweet how love finds a way, even if there are really sad endings like in Rufus’s case. Connection finds a way, even when people try to prevent it from happening.
Murphy: It’s so impactful to understand that not only are you not alone in this moment in time, but you’re not alone over the course of history. It’s so incredibly powerful to know that people like you have existed long before you. So many of us think that the circumstances that we are going through are so individual to us, and they are something that no one else has experienced; and if no one else has experienced these things, then there’s obviously no map. But the truth is, so many people have come before us, and have figured out how to survive and thrive, and find their own pockets of happiness.
Van Ness: That’s part of why I wanted to write a book that speaks to the truth of queer history, so that young, queer people know that they’re not alone.
Murphy: I completely agree.
I just love our little book. This is such a slice of Jonathan and like a slice of Julie combined.
Van Ness: I do, too. I can’t wait for everyone to get to read it.
